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Derry

HEQ5 Pro polar alignment with SynScan

27 posts in this topic

I'm not new to astronomy by any means, having got my first telescope for my eleventh birthday over fifty years ago.  Just recently, though, I acquired my very first GOTO mount, an HEQ5 Pro SynScan and I here I am a complete beginner.

 

My questions are to do with polar alignment - which I understand is very common and, believe me, I have done my research looking for an answer before coming here.  I know enough to know that the supplied manual is utterly useless in this regard.  The preamble to the questions may seem long-winded, but I'm hoping to find someone with the same setup, and that will help keep the answer short.  I'm sure I'm missing something fairly basic.

 

NOTE: I have performed the one-time collimation of the reticle with the polarscope axis.  My problem is with the polar alignment that needs to be done at the start of each observing session, to point the polarscope axis to the north celestial pole.

 

I am performing the alignment using the SynScan hand control, which gives me 'Polaris position' and RA during initialisation.  At the moment I'm using only the rough alignment suitable for visual observing.  I have not tried accurate Polar alignment described in the appendix.  There are plenty of web pages describing polar alignment for these mounts, but I can't find one which describes the process using the specific reticle pattern that my mount contains, which is as follows:

 

It has three concentric circles centre on a cross, with a diagram of Octans off to one side.   There are NO etchings showing the Little Plough and W asterisms of Ursa Minor and Cassippeia and, more importantly, NO little circle labelled Polaris.  I do know that, for 2015, I need to use the outer circle and ignore the other two.  The circles are marked with 0, 3, 6, 9 like a clock face.

 

So my questions could best be answered by somebody who has the same reticle (and preferably the same software SynScan software version 04.37.01) and is performing polar alignment using the SynScan hand controller.  I do not use a computer while observing.

 

Questions.

1) Is there a web page which already describes this process step by step?  If so, then a link to it may be sufficient.  

2) Before I start, should the 0 of the reticle be at the top or bottom, as viewed through the polarscope?  Does it matter?

3) During the initialisation process, the SynScan controller gives me;
    Polaris position (e.g. 08:55).  The manual says press [ENTER] to confirm.
    Polaris Hour Angle (e.g. 18:09).  Again, the manual says press [ENTER] to confirm

I'm sure I have to do SOMETHING at this point, but what, exactly?  (When I did nothing and went on to the first star alignment, the scope slewed to point below the horizon, which was a subtle hint that something was wrong).

4) The 0-6 line of the reticle is not parallel to the RA axis, being off by about 5-10 degrees.  Does it matter?  I haven't found any way to adjust it so perhaps it's irrelevant.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

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It looks like you have a southern hemisphere reticle, Octans is a southern constellation. That would also explain the lack of a Polaris circle and lack of Cassiopeia and Ursa Major as guides.

I reckon you need a new polar scope.

I am not sure which one you would need.

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Yeah. What Baz says, sounds like you've got a Southern reticule. Can you buy a Northern and just change it over?

 

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Hello Derry. Have you just bought this mount new from a dealer? As stated above you have a polar scope for use in the southern hemisphere. If it was a second hand bargain then we'll have to try to figure out a fix but if you've paid full whack for it then go back to the supplier to get it changed.

A rough alignment can be achieved just by putting Polaris in the middle of the circle. Also pay attention to the way the date is entered, I can't remember but it tells you the order on the hand set screen and it's not "day/month/year" as we are used to.

Before you press enter for your first star alignment you need to unlock the RA axis and point the scope north 0 degrees.

Good luck and please feel free to ask as many questions as you like.

Alan.

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Forgot to say, point scope north with the counterweights also pointing north. If you have a wide field eye piece you may be able to get Polaris on the edge of your view but don't worry if not.

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Ooh, lots of replies, thank you all very much!  As mentioned, I am not new to astronomy: when my sister was given a small Celestron goto telescope for Christmas I was able to translate the instructions into layman-speak to enable her to use it.  The thing I am struggling with here is following the instructions in the Sky Watcher manual.  They simply don't make sense.  I'm finding this web site useful: http://www.dulcemelos.ca/en/articles/heq5.asp.  Unfortunately, even this refers to the old version of the reticle engraving.

 

In response to the answers so far - and at the risk of boring everyone to tears - here's a little more background:  The mount is brand new (from Rother Valley Optics).  The telescope tube is from my 15-year-old Meade 8" LX10 SCT.  I have deforked the OTA and plan to use it in the new mount, once I can make sense of the alignment instructions.  Obviously I can point the axis toward Polaris and the RA drive will keep things aligned sufficiently for visual observing.  That is, after all, what I've always done with the LX10.  However, I bought the mount specifically for the Goto functions and that requires more accurate alignment.

 

The manual describes a reticle with engravings of the Plough, Cassiopeia and Octans, plus a little circle on a larger circle to mark the position of Polaris.  That's the OLD version, which I don't have.  I got an addendum on a piece of A5 paper describing the NEW polar scope engraving.  The reticle really is designed for use in both north and south hemispheres.  Here's an exerpt from the addendum:

 

"The engraving seen through your scope may be different from the one described in the manual.

The SynScan hand control and several PC applications can give Polaris orientation in the FOV of a polar scope depending on observer's position and local time.  Generally, the orientations are given given in time format.    The new reticle has a clock-like engraving which is compatible with these applications.

For polar alignment rotate the RA axis to put the 0 of the reticle at the highest postion in the FOV of the polar scope, then place Polaris at the correct clock position given by SynScan".

 

So I do have the correct reticle and the correct mount.  However, putting the 0 of the reticle at the highest position as instructed ends up with the weight bar pointing upwards and behind me (i.e towards the celestial equator) and over my left shoulder.  The telescope, were it mounted at this time, would be hanging down by my waist and pointing approximately east-west.  That's just bonkers, isn't it?

 

As mentioned in question 3 in my original post, the controller gives me the Polaris position and I THINK that's what it's referring to here.  The next step displays RA of Polaris for my date, time and location.  Fine, but what am I supposed to do with that information?  As soon as I rotate the RA axis away from the north-south plane, the polar scope is blocked and I can no longer see Polaris.

 

Can anyone answer the four questions from my original post?  I can scan in the addendum sheet, with the reticle diagram, if that would help.  Thanks for all responses so far.

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just a thought, try youtube, if you put heq5 polar alignment in  the search box there a quite a number of video's,and hopefully there will be one which will show you what you need, a picture being worth ............. yea OK. hope this helps, and regards the instructions, if they are as bad  as my EQ5 goto instructions, probably only any good as fire lighters lol, good luck with your new scope, Lum, Essex.

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Gawd. Having read the problems of a southern  hemisphere  heq5 pro sold by RVO is most disturbing. I am close to buying this mount, but hope it's northern.  Good luck in finding a solution. I'd  ask RVO for a "proper manual" - if it's a language translation issue, someone must have by now, written an understandable version? I'll  be interested in how you get on.  There are a few polar alignment apps which might be worth looking up. But the one i bought was useless - nothing worked. It remained frozen.  Check out Dion's videos on Astronomy Shed. He does some good step by step instructions on many aspects.

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I went to bed last night feeling quite despondent, having made little progress in recent days.  My brain however, refused t give up and this morning I awoke around five a.m, with a few ideas.  It dawned on me, you might say.  (Sorry).

 

First let me assure Orion that I really do have the correct polarscope and the correct reticle.  There is only one and it is used for both north and south hemispheres.  I thought I explained that in my last post.  I've scanned in the addendum to the manual and will attach the image to this post if I can work out how to do it (and if the forum allows it ).

 

Two problems have been causing most of my problems.
1) The manual, as Lum says, may as well be used for firelighters.  The instructions simply do not work.
2)  The reticle I have (I repeat, it IS the correct reticle) is about 170 degrees rotated from where it should be.
I hope to resolve the first by looking elsewhere for clues (such as this forum).  As for the second, I have so far found no way to rotate the reticle.  But I can ignore the numbers and pretend it's the right way up.  It's only the circle I need, after all.

 

Now to the idea that woke me this morning:  Somewhere in my research I remember reading that Polaris culminates at 21:00 on 15 December (or, if you believe the manual, at 22:00 on 22 October).  The SynScan hand controller doesn't know that outside it is a dull damp morning in November because it hasn't got eyes and ears and fingers that feel the cold.  Haha.  It lives in its own little virtual reality and can be fooled very easily.  So, with the mount set up in the living room, I started experimenting with various dates and times.  Here are the results.

Date       Time     Polaris Position    Polaris HA
15 Dec    21:09    05:59                 00:00
15 Dec    22:09    05:30                 00:59
15 Dec    23:11    04:59                 02:00

29 Nov    22:12    05:59                 00:00
15 Nov    23:11    05:57                 00:00

 

Using the first date and time, I then pointed the scope along the polar axis, locked the RA, then did a pretend alignment.  I then tried to find a few named stars and the scope at least pointed to the correct corner of the sky (as far as I could remember from the last time I saw a star).  Some of this begins to make sense and will allow me to make at least a rough polar alignment, using the following method, once the clouds clear.  Will this work...

 

With tripod levelled and pointing approximately north, with counterweights also pointing north, enter the appropriate date and time and read off the Polaris position.

Looking through the polar scope, use the alt-az bolts to place Polaris on the 'clock face' at the correct position - bearing in mind that my reticle is skewed, so imagining a clock face the right way up.  That should align the polar axis with the NCP and I can then close up the polar scope and attach the telescope.  If I now point the telescope at Polaris, I should be able to continue with the 1, 2 or 3 star alignment.  Does that sound right?  I still don't know what to do with the HA information.

HEQ5 Reticle Addendum.jpg

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9 hours ago, Derry said:

I went to bed last night feeling quite despondent, having made little progress in recent days.  My brain however, refused t give up and this morning I awoke around five a.m, with a few ideas.  It dawned on me, you might say.  (Sorry).

 

First let me assure Orion that I really do have the correct polarscope and the correct reticle.  There is only one and it is used for both north and south hemispheres.  I thought I explained that in my last post.  I've scanned in the addendum to the manual and will attach the image to this post if I can work out how to do it (and if the forum allows it ).

 

Two problems have been causing most of my problems.
1) The manual, as Lum says, may as well be used for firelighters.  The instructions simply do not work.
2)  The reticle I have (I repeat, it IS the correct reticle) is about 170 degrees rotated from where it should be.
I hope to resolve the first by looking elsewhere for clues (such as this forum).  As for the second, I have so far found no way to rotate the reticle.  But I can ignore the numbers and pretend it's the right way up.  It's only the circle I need, after all.

 

Now to the idea that woke me this morning:  Somewhere in my research I remember reading that Polaris culminates at 21:00 on 15 December (or, if you believe the manual, at 22:00 on 22 October).  The SynScan hand controller doesn't know that outside it is a dull damp morning in November because it hasn't got eyes and ears and fingers that feel the cold.  Haha.  It lives in its own little virtual reality and can be fooled very easily.  So, with the mount set up in the living room, I started experimenting with various dates and times.  Here are the results.

Date       Time     Polaris Position    Polaris HA
15 Dec    21:09    05:59                 00:00
15 Dec    22:09    05:30                 00:59
15 Dec    23:11    04:59                 02:00

29 Nov    22:12    05:59                 00:00
15 Nov    23:11    05:57                 00:00

 

Using the first date and time, I then pointed the scope along the polar axis, locked the RA, then did a pretend alignment.  I then tried to find a few named stars and the scope at least pointed to the correct corner of the sky (as far as I could remember from the last time I saw a star).  Some of this begins to make sense and will allow me to make at least a rough polar alignment, using the following method, once the clouds clear.  Will this work...

 

With tripod levelled and pointing approximately north, with counterweights also pointing north, enter the appropriate date and time and read off the Polaris position.

Looking through the polar scope, use the alt-az bolts to place Polaris on the 'clock face' at the correct position - bearing in mind that my reticle is skewed, so imagining a clock face the right way up.  That should align the polar axis with the NCP and I can then close up the polar scope and attach the telescope.  If I now point the telescope at Polaris, I should be able to continue with the 1, 2 or 3 star alignment.  Does that sound right?  I still don't know what to do with the HA information.

HEQ5 Reticle Addendum.jpg

Gawd. Having read the problems of a southern  hemisphere  heq5 pro sold by RVO is most disturbing. I am close to buying this mount, but hope it's northern.  Good luck in finding a solution. I'd  ask RVO for a "proper manual" - if it's a language translation issue, someone must have by now, written an understandable version? I'll  be interested in how you get on.  There are a few polar alignment apps which might be worth looking up. But the one i bought was useless - nothing worked. It remained frozen.  Check out Dion's videos on Astronomy Shed. He does some good step by step instructions on many aspects.

 

Probably  me not paying enough attention so late.  Re the reticle. I saw some youtube videos a while back on calibrating the reticle where the young oriental lad showed you how to move it. It all sounds complicated but i think you learn a lot by going through what you're  doing meticulously.

 

Try not to be down hearted. You're  probably  trying to do it all too much. Take it step by step. Have breaks and when you come back, youll be refreshed. You might understand  an instruction much more that way. It wont sink in all at once.

 

You could by pass all that and try a manual alignment, then adjust the alt a tweak and see the effect it does on how a star drifts - north or south, when the RA drive is on. You could home in on one star and time how long it takes to drift a certain distance from the centre cross in an eyepiece thro the main scope. The eyepiece would need a cross hair and some scale to measure distance. If it takes 100 seconds to drift south, x units of distance (say divisions on a scale), adjust alt az and recentre the star, and time it again. You may have made things worse or better. If you know your  amount of adjustment, you know that adjustment causes drift of 100 seconds. Interpolate an adjustmentpro rata, and re do the star centring and time the drift. You'll  get to a point where your adjustment  is making the star not drift at all, or it drifts the opposite. Once it doesn't  drift, do the same procedure, adjusting the other axis (start with one axis first doing all the above, then, go to the other axis and repeat the process. Once you have the star sitting there not drifting north south east or west, or a vector,  the mount must be aligned. 

 

Out of interest, you could  then try using the handset and dial up an object and see if it finds it.  Look up the drift method. There are various ones but at least have a try with one.

 

When you do all this, have yourself some fun as well. Use the scope to look at things. This way, youll get pleasure whilst  also doing some scientific adjustments.

 

Derek

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Hi Derry

Congrats on the mount, I have had one for donkeys years and its a great scope.

 

As you are a visual observer my recommendations are to not get bogged down with PA too much at this stage you will waste valuable clear sky time on doing something which isn't really necessary. OK if you are an OCD type then carry on as theres no hope for you:) but if you want to be up and running and not waste clear skies then here's a tip

 

2 things you should know which aren't in the manuals and a lot of folks on forums (especially those with Dobs who don't do goto;)) get a tad caught up about are.... get ready for a revelation:)

For visual

  1. You don't need perfectly accurate polar alignment for your goto to work
  2. You don't need perfectly accurate polar alignment for useful visual observing

 

I have been doing visual for donkeys years by simply plonking the eq mount down and looking though the polar scope and so long as polaris is somewhere in the that middle circle your goto will work fine. This works for all my scopes from short tubes to long tubes.

 

Why? Because your mount maps the sky when you do the 3 star alignment and will compensate for a slightly off polar alignment , hence your goto will still work. Obviously if you point the mount 180 degrees out it wont stand a chance:) 

 

The polar alignment is there for helping get a datum (ish see above) for your goto and also for accurate  compensation of the earths rotation such that you can keep an object in the eyepiece without drifting for a long time. The more accurate the polar alignment the longer the object will stay in the centre of your eyepiece.

 

Thus for photography where it is very important that the object doesn't "drift" in the eyepiece, IT IS IMPORTANT for accurate polar alignment.

 

As stated, don't worry too much about Polar alignment, point the polar scope at polaris and enjoy the views, leave the OCD stuff for when you start astro imaging

 

PS another revelation, your goto will also work if you co ords are out. I know folks religiously change their co ords in the handset everytime they move their mount from house to darksite. I have my mount set wiyth home co ords all the time. I never change them even when going to starparties in Norfolk or Hereford, its still works, again because the mount compensates.

 

These mounts are quite forgiving to the visual observer

 

 

Edited by philjay
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11 hours ago, Derry said:

With tripod levelled and pointing approximately north, with counterweights also pointing north, enter the appropriate date and time and read off the Polaris position.

Looking through the polar scope, use the alt-az bolts to place Polaris on the 'clock face' at the correct position - bearing in mind that my reticle is skewed, so imagining a clock face the right way up.  That should align the polar axis with the NCP and I can then close up the polar scope and attach the telescope.  If I now point the telescope at Polaris, I should be able to continue with the 1, 2 or 3 star alignment.  Does that sound right?  I still don't know what to do with the HA information.

 

Yes Derry I think that is spot on. 

I don't think S-W bother about aligning the 0/12 o-clock as on the northern reticle you had to rotate the RA axis to put the Polaris circle at the correct O-clock position. In short, It doesn't matter that it's skewed because your only using it for PA after which you're going to rotate it to point the scope north anyway.

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Thanks folks.  For the third day in a row, my brain woke me up thinking it had the answer. - pretty much what is said above.  Even if I position polaris on the centre cross of the circle, it will be a more accurate alignment than I've been using with my Meade all these years.  If I place it at the correct position (given by the hand controller) then so much the better.  Whilst I have a DSLR camera to attach to the scope, I am not interested in imaging with CCDs and laptops and all the related paraphernalia.

 

The other thing that I realised is that the '6' on the clock face of the new reticle corresponds to the little Polaris circle on the old style reticle, so I can convert easily between the two if need be.  Sometime yesterday I realised that the Polar scope inverts the image, like and refractor, so that putting the 6 at the bottom corresponds to Polaris culminating.  Obvious, now.

 

Also yesterday, I took the eyepiece off the Polarscope (there was a blurry mark I wanted to clean off) and spotted the notches on the reticle.  So, whilst I now know that it doesn't really matter, I decided that I couldn't live with it being rotated by 170 degrees, and went for my circlip pliers.  It's back in one piece now, but the job for today is to redo the Polarscope collimation :)

 

My next post will be after I've set up outside under clear skies and tried out the star alignment.  Unless I hit another wall.

 

Thanks all for your assistance.

 

Derry

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"set up under clear skies"  well sorry Derry, but if you have my luck, the clear skies you speak of will be that brick wall, one decent clear sky here in 2 weeks and I had to be on call so couldn't make use of it, still that's life, look forward to your next report, Lum. 

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Agreed, Lum!  I've had one partly clear night ( a bitterly cold one at that) since I bought the new mount three weeks ago.  That's the one time I put the Meade OTA on the mount.  I've since realised that I had the doevtail supports the wrong way up and it was pointing in the wrong direction - which may have been why it thought Vega was below the horizon.  The Sky Watcher manual assumes you have a Sky watcher scope of course.  This may have been the fundamental error convinced me that I was misunderstanding the alignment instructions.

 

Now I will have to move the finderscope to the other side and realign it.  Happily, that's something I can do inside in the warm, pointing the scope through the window.

 

The replies to this thread (thanks again to all those who gave their time) have assured me that I'm not going completely mad and I have plenty of options to try out, when the clouds finally clear.  Ironically, this morning dawned bright and clear, with Venus and Jupiter (and the Moon) looking beautiful earlier.  Rain forecast for later, unfortunately.

 

Derry

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Hi Derry. You asked about hour angle. I knew I had something on it but it took a while to find. This may help. 

As I said before though, I think you are on the right track anyway

On 11/29/2015, 11:08:52, Derry said:

 

With tripod levelled and pointing approximately north, with counterweights also pointing north, enter the appropriate date and time and read off the Polaris position.

Looking through the polar scope, use the alt-az bolts to place Polaris on the 'clock face' at the correct position - bearing in mind that my reticle is skewed, so imagining a clock face the right way up.  That should align the polar axis with the NCP and I can then close up the polar scope and attach the telescope.  If I now point the telescope at Polaris, I should be able to continue with the 1, 2 or 3 star alignment.  Does that sound right?  I still don't know what to do with the HA information.

so I hope this doesn't confuse the issue. 

 

 

23493907766_6c2334ab91_o.jpgImg_1440 by Alan Piggott, on Flickr

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I have had this mount for 3 years and find Polar alignment quite easy especially for AP. I use a free program called Polar Finder. Run that and it will give you the exact position of Polaris on the circle of the Polarscope  ie: If Polar finder shows 10pm them using the mount Alt and Dec bolts to move the star to a 10pm position on the circle and it's done. The clock times on the reticule can be turned to help you read the face of a clock and where say 10pm is but not necessary. I have never used the dials on the mount and have easily managed 10 minutes subs with the camera!

 

Cheers

Ron

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Hi,

I've been looking for a good tutorial how to set up and align a HEQ5 Pro. I've read a lot and I've seen several vids on Youtube. Today, finally I achieved, lets say a milestone. Mind that I am just a beginner in that matter as my set arrived a week ago. A member of our Astro Club, helped me a lot, explaining the most important parts of alignment process. The rest of it I took from vids and tutorials.

Now, as today's try was fully successful, I would just point the most important thing, or two.

The key to success is a well leveled tripod. Next one, lever quite precisely both axis. Take your time and do it right.

Then you'll have a widely open door to do the rest, which is aligning head unit, setting home position etc.

Clear skies! Andy

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The heq5 mount has 2 adjustments, up and down and round and round, e.g. think of it as a universal joint at the top of the tripod. This allows the mount to be pointed at polaris regardless of the tripod attitude. Levelling the tripod on an heq5 mount just makes it easier to replicate the alignment, it is not essential. 

You can have youre tripod head st 45 degrees if you so desired but so long as the ra axis is pointed to polaris it makes no difference, the mount will still work

Edited by philjay
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Totally agree with Phil. Having the tripod perfectly level being an "essential" part of the PA process is a common misconception.

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I think some of it originates from the altaz goto mounts where you do need to be level as that is one datum required for the mount to map where it is in relation to the outside world

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On 05/12/2015 at 17:26, Ron Clarke said:

I have had this mount for 3 years and find Polar alignment quite easy especially for AP. I use a free program called Polar Finder. Run that and it will give you the exact position of Polaris on the circle of the Polarscope  ie: If Polar finder shows 10pm them using the mount Alt and Dec bolts to move the star to a 10pm position on the circle and it's done. The clock times on the reticule can be turned to help you read the face of a clock and where say 10pm is but not necessary. I have never used the dials on the mount and have easily managed 10 minutes subs with the camera!

 

Cheers

Ron

Ron.  I noticed you mention using the Alt and Dec bolts to move the mount so that pole star centres on the 10 pm position.  I may have misunderstood, and thinking with respect to what I'd do on an old Fullerscope equatorial, which is to physically move the mount east or west (i rotate it, which I think is rotating it in azimuth, yes?). But on the polar axis, i unclamp the polar nut and raise or lower the mount. I think that action of raising or lowering is moving the altitude.  Back to your statement, I think your "Alt bolt" is probably tge same as my "polar nut", which changes the angle of the polar axis with the ground (getting the latitude correct). But I'm confused when you say Dec bolt. Did you not have meant to say Az bolt? (instead of Dec bolt)?  On my Fullerscope, the adjustments described above is to be done with the Dec axis locked and pointing at 90 degrees.

 

I'll soon have my HEQ5 PRO, so I'll be going thro another learning curve, but this post has been valuable already.

 

I agree with Philjay as well.  On the occasions i did use the reflector for visual, rough polar alignment was all that was needed. In fact sometimes i couldn't see polaris if i had the scope right near the house. I used to just guess roughly where polaris was (east or west) and because the polar height was maintained roughly for my latitude, the only rough adjustment was moving the mount left or right. I even used the scope from insude the house, looking at the moon with the RA drive on, and it kept track roughly, only the occassional, recentre was done.

 

I wondered how Derry has gotten on now.

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