The Greatest Miracle of All

[Doc]

I was christened but since then have never been made to go to church, but I still at times have a desire to go to church, why I don't really know, but in the back of my mind it feels the right thing to do, if this makes any sense.

 

I don't believe in an almighty god who created the universe but then I do believe in the other side, I have actually felt a spirit, or whatever it is called, but thats a story for another day.

 

I'm more a science man and believe in evolution and the scientific version of how the universe was born, even though this is far from complete.

[+RonC]

I think the crux of the matter for me is 'faith'. Faith is believing something you cannot see or prove and is what keeps me going on 'the way'. I do not like religion, by that I mean a system run by men for men in the name of a deity. As Sheila said some things about astronomy enforce what I believe to be true and some don't, so what??

Hope this isn't too deep??

 

Cheers

Ron

[Craig]

Andy - I get what you mean about some of the hatred and intolerance that comes out of religions, but I have to say that those I personally know who are religious are the exact opposite. I don't know one Christian, personally, who opposes equal rights for gay couples yet the leadership of Christian establishments do. It's just totally wrong.

 

It's also interesting that there are so many religions. They cannot all be right, so which ones are wrong?

 

As for what happens when we die? I believe we've had our time, through pure chance, and we cease to exist as conscious beings at that point. I don't believe in an afterlife nor an eternity in another state. Simply that I will be recycled as all things organic eventually do.

[Sheila]

It is very good to hear different perspectives to the debate.  I have not joined in much as it is very difficult to explain faith to anyone.

 

It does not make a person better than anyone else... but if you tried to explain to a child what the colour blue was if they were colour blind you

would find it difficult.  Hence it is difficult to explain your faith to someone who has not experienced it.

 

I am a scientist and always have been.  I constantly read on the theory of evolution and have no problems with it at all as with any theory and rejoice when evidence is found to further our knowledge in this area.  I have no problems either with geological time.  My only concerns are when some folks in physics postulate that you can get something from nothing.  That is

a stretch too far for me.  At some point you have to have something/someone to start things on a path........ and what a path it is  The universe

is awesome and never ceases to amaze me.  Whatever you believe  deity....accident....mere chance....   i think we all feel the same about our world and universe.....its just the best

 

 

Sheila

[Craig]

I am a scientist and always have been.  I constantly read on the theory of evolution and have no problems with it at all as with any theory and rejoice when evidence is found to further our knowledge in this area.  I have no problems either with geological time.  My only concerns are when some folks in physics postulate that you can get something from nothing.  That is

a stretch too far for me.  At some point you have to have something/someone to start things on a path........ and what a path it is  The universe

is awesome and never ceases to amaze me.  Whatever you believe  deity....accident....mere chance....   i think we all feel the same about our world and universe.....its just the best

 

That's where I struggle Sheila. I don't believe for one moment that we understand the universe enough to postulate in any certainty about it's creation or the processes leading up to it, but nor do I accept the requirement of a creator. Human perception is very limited and it's possible, perhaps even highly likely, that we will just never know.

 

Faith, I have never had. I will never have it and I don't really want it either.

 

I'm very outwardly atheist so sometimes my views can be a bit cutting, but I really have enjoyed talking about it on the forums. It's been nice to see the different viewpoints.

 

The conclusion I've drawn from this is that I won't convince a person of faith that my views are the correct ones, nor would I try, but a person of faith will never convince me that their God is real.

 

The beauty of individuality. It makes us interesting.

 

I have a question... To those who are religious, were you raised to be?

[T A WOW]

That question you ask Craig is a very good one. I often wonder about that. My aassumption is that people are religious because they were raised that way (most any how).

[Sheila]

That's where I struggle Sheila. I don't believe for one moment that we understand the universe enough to postulate in any certainty about it's creation or the processes leading up to it, but nor do I accept the requirement of a creator. Human perception is very limited and it's possible, perhaps even highly likely, that we will just never know.

 

Faith, I have never had. I will never have it and I don't really want it either.

 

I'm very outwardly atheist so sometimes my views can be a bit cutting, but I really have enjoyed talking about it on the forums. It's been nice to see the different viewpoints.

 

The conclusion I've drawn from this is that I won't convince a person of faith that my views are the correct ones, nor would I try, but a person of faith will never convince me that their God is real.

 

The beauty of individuality. It makes us interesting.

 

I have a question... To those who are religious, were you raised to be?

in answer to your question...... no i was not.  My dad is and athiest and Mum never expressed an opinion.

 

 

Sheila

[+RonC]

And my answer is also no! I was a choirboy as a kid but that was it, my Dad never went to church and my Mum, only to Baptisms, weddings etc.

[Craig]

Now that is interesting.

 

Mainly as I have often heard it's all to do with childhood. It seems that this is immediately refuted. It goes to show not to believe what you might hear or read.

 

I am the opposite. I was taken to church as a child and listened to the preaching, but it never took. I was too inquisitive. I asked too many questions.

[Tibbz2]

I am then, in a way, kind of the opposite here!

 

From what I remember I was bought up somewhat religiously, my Mum was (and still is) Christian, and I was baptized and went to church quite a bit when I was young! However now I am not religious!

[Perkil8r]

Hmmm, the answer is not as simple as yes or no in my case. My mother is a stay at home Catholic now a days, and adheres strongly to it when it suits but in reality is not terribly religious so to speak. My father was raised church of England but has a pretty much neutral view on such things. As a child I was never christened nor baptised and whilst not raised in a religious environment I was tought Christian values, which I am sure most of us would agree, on the whole are a fine set of values to which we should all adhere to. (do to others etc, don't steal and that sort of thing) I was sent to a church run youth club on Monday nights but I think that was a good excuse to get some time to themselves

 

In my teens I was very much of the opinion that all religion was bunkum, and that was pretty much that. Later in life in my mid 20's I suddenly felt an urge to learn more and ended up attending an Alpha course at the local Christian Centre. It did make me feel good about things and I was born again. I didn't attend for all that long, perhaps a year or so, but afterwards continued to live that "way" for want of a better phrase.

 

Which brings us to the last few years. I came to realise that a lot of what I was believing was flawed, this was compounded by the things I have learned about the formation of stars, planets, galaxies and the Universe. A lot of what I had come to believe was turned on it's head by hard evidence to the contrary. I continue to live my life trying to adhere to the values but not the belief that I had. I'm not willing to turn my back on belief all together though. There are gaps in our knowledge, and my thoughts are that there is room for God to provide the bits we're missing, be that creating the Universe or creating the environment in which the Universe can exist I am not sure, but I feel without proof that God does not exist, I should not be too quick to rule the possibility out. Certainly living my life according to the general outline of Christian values is never likely to harm anyone.

[+RonC]

I agree Mike, it's not what you say or think, it's how you live your life that matters. I worked on 3 Alpha courses and enjoyed them all. To each his own!  Amen

[Brantuk]

I gave up on religion at the age of 13yrs when my JW mother invited two tall handsome well dressed Mormon chaps into the house and they started to try and convert each other. They were quoting from their Mormon bible by Joseph Smith and she was quoting from the JW bible and Watchtower. I couldn't help but fall about laughing with the comic absurdity of it all. No one was listening to the other - just a load of constant contradiction.

 

But it did teach me one good thing - to accept what is, admit what I don't know, and share only what others are interested in. This has been invaluable ever since. As for the after life - I've just no idea and I can't do anything about it. Live every day like it's your last cos the only thing we are assured of is tax and death.

 

(Oh I do like science and astronomy though)

[Guest Ely Ellis]

My mother is a Methodist (whatever that is), I was Christened C of E and did attend church and Sunday school until probably about 11, basically until I could make my own mind up.

 

Like what has been mentioned here already, I follow religious values, I won’t say Christian values as these values are probably found in most, if not all religions.

 

I don’t harm anyone, steel, cheat, etc. I like to joke around a lot, eat excessive and get on with my life, yet I am in no way religious.

Having travelled extensively around the world, I have met and worked with people of all sorts of religions, most if not all of these people have been good honest individuals, yet I also come across the ones that are not so nice, regardless of what religions they follow.

 

My point here being, that there are good and bad people regardless of religion but you don’t tend to get a bunch of scientists start a war (they may end it!). Science overcomes differences in faith as scientists all over the world, no matter what race, colour or religion will work together. This is not unique, (otherwise I wouldn’t have a job), but an example that if religion is taken out of the equation, people tend to work together better!

 

We, on EMS are all interested in Astronomy and as such work well together, maybe a few disagreements along the way but as a whole, we all get along great, sharing ideas, helping each other, etc.  Bring religion up and one of the first things posted was a reminder to respect each other’s views, knowing that the subject could cause some tension! Does that not speak for itself?

 

I hope, regardless of religion, faith, colour, race, background, etc. We continue to keep the friendliness, helpfulness, etc of our group (EMS).

 

Cheers

 

Martin

Edited April 9, 2013 by Ely Ellis

[Craig]

Sums it up nicely for me.

[Tweedledee]

Very well said martin.

[Guest Wayne]

Hi every one. I'm not a believer. But, having said that I am spiritual. And open minded.

Its good to have faith in something- or the world would be a bit dull. What I am trying to say it that my version of a god is the good and simple things that happen.

Astronomy brings people together. what could be better than that?

EMS has done a great job of doing just that. Stay curious'' and open minded. :-)

[tuckstar]

"I don't want to believe, I want to know."

Carl Sagan.

[Guest Steve]

Never, ever, felt the slightest whiff of a deity or belief of afterlife.

 

I used to work with 2 guys - one a highly intelligent articulate IT consultant who was a committed modern Christian and did good deeds in his spare time. Another a Lay Preacher who later gave up to take on a parish in Wales as a strict Baptist Minister. We used to have interesting conversations about all this, but no-one could convince the others of their particular views.

 

The conclusion was that my Narwhay(? spirit) was dead. The fact that I am unable to believe in their eyes condemns me to Hell. Wow!

 

Apparently the same applies to aboriginals living in the jungle who haven't been told about Jesus and taken him into their heart - going straight down..... doesn't seem right to me!

 

To be honest it must be comforting to believe in something. But I don't so just get on with it.

 

Wasn't there a report a while ago that 'believers' had a higher mortality rate in A&E? Less to lose I guess.

[Guest Wayne]

There's no right or wrong. It just that I don't believe in a god as such. But I have lots of respect for those that are.

I'd like to know too' But not knowing means that I can study it. And that means I can spend time with people who are in to the same thing. the universe is bigger than us. We'll never know it all. But it won't stop us being curious.

Sorry if that's a bit deep. It's one of those topic's you cannot ignore.

Now my head hurts :-)