Dennis1954 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Guidance required folks. I have my first scope ,150 reflector, and can easily pick out Jupiter and moons, Orions nebula and other things that are "visible" with the naked eye in terms of where they are in the sky but as soon as I go further it seems impossible. I tried for ages to find the Andromeda galaxy but with no success. I sort of expected to see a sort of small elongated cloud but could find nothing, I know I was in the correct area and here is a lot of light pollution in that area of the sky. Would you expect to find it reasonable easily or not at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red dwalf Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 i can see it from my location which is sandiacre surrounded by street lights, as you say it is visible as a faint smudge and i`ve slewed past it a few times trying to find it, which is one of the reasons i went for goto, i couldn`t find objects, there are some very good visual observers who can find it easily by star hoping and i`m sure one will be along to help you out with that. that said visually from a light polluted area it`s not much to look at and you don`t get a sense of how big it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbz2 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 If you've got a lot of light pollution it will probably still be visible, but easily missed because as Rob said it will just be a smudge. I don't really have a technical way to find it, I just find the arm off Andromeda, and it's around the top of that lol, I'll get a chart and show what I follow if it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbz2 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I marked on how I find it in blue, basically follow the 'arm' off Andromeda, and it sits above the last star, also part of Cassiopeia forms an 'arrow' shape that points in the general direction, but if you're using a low mag eyepiece as I do to find it, then it is accurate enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+RonC Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 As Rob says, it's not a lot to look at and often disapoints people who expect it to look like photo's seen in astro magazines. It only looks like that if you photograph it (lots of exposures, stacked and processed in Photoshop!) I also use a Goto! Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawson Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 These fainter objects are better seen with less light pollution around, which is one of the benefits of the dark sites. There is something here about expectations; I find galaxies are pretty unimpressive to look at in scopes under 8-10 inches, though if you are happy seeing a smudge and knowing it's Messier whatever, then that is fine and still a great achievement especially if you've not got GOTO and found it on your own with maps; we are just saturated with fancy images of these distant objects on the TV and in magazines and on forums, but these images may have taken hundreds of hours to collect on a sensor, compared to the refresh rate of the retina (whatever that may be). So yes, I think you may need to re-adjust your expectations, and have a go in a dark site too. There are plenty of other brighter pretty things to look at though from light polluted skies. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 As another beginner, I struggled to find it, even with a go-to. What threw it for me was that it was expecting to have to use a high magnification. That was before I realised how big it is in the sky, relatively speaking. This shows it's size relative to the moon for comparison http://www.noao.edu/image_gallery/html/im0606.html Visually, I would think we can only see the bright core as a smudge, but the point is its a lot bigger than you might imagine. Cranking up the magnification doesn't help and makes it harder to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brantuk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 We have to refresh our retinas at a minimum of 25 frames/second to detect movement. But of course the eye is a lot more complex than just that. There's light/dark edges to deal with, colour receptors, black/white receptors, and perception of depth and perspective. The human eye is very much an outpost of the brain - and the info it receives is all processed on the back of the cerebral cortex. That's why you see stars when you get bottled on the back of the head - but it won't help you see stars in the sky (or galaxies) lol. Some galaxies are plain to see - others require averted vision where you tilt your head slightly to one side and look to the side of the object position. The idea is to get the eye's rods (black/white receptors) looking at the object. The cones (colour receptors) are densely packed in a small tight central spot on the back of the retina and the rods are sparsely packed all around it up to the retina edges. The cones are great for seeing colour in planets - but for very faint distant galaxies the only way to see them in an eyepiece is with the rods. Ensure your eye's are dark adapted which de-activates the cones and heightens the rods sensitivity for best results. It's a bit like walking round a totally dark room at night and you suddenly start to see stuff - that's the rods beginning to pick up shapes and shadows after 20 mins or so. The andromeda galaxy is the only naked eye galaxy visible from Earth. Once you know where it is you can see it totally unaided just by looking up. To identify it precisely and learn the position, use a pair of bulk standard 10x50 binocs initially. These give the low magnification required to see it, and the width of field required to accommodate it's huge size. It's more prominent from a totally dark site and appears as an unmistakeable oval smudge with a bright central circular core. To find Andromeda galaxy you need to imagine two lines - one straight from the arrow part of Cas, and the other, an extended line from the Great Square of Pegasus passing diagonally from Markab through Alphertaz. Where they cross, just pan around up and right a tiny amount and bang! there it is. You'll never lose it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAZ Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Yup, been there done that. I have spent countless hours in search of Andromeda and the Triangulum galaxies. You would be amazed just how good Andromeda looks naked eye from a really dark sky, I have held my index finger out at arms length and the galaxy has been visible either side of my finger. A pair of Bino's really do it justice. M33, the Triangulum galaxy. I spent an entire night looking for this, getting fed up, finding other stuff and coming back to it, it became an obsession. Then I had a look with binoculars to check out that I was in the right star field, oh yes I was, I had been looking clean through it with a magnification that was way too high. It stood out like a sore thumb in the Bino's. The way I find the Andromeda Galaxy is to find the top left hand corner star of the Pegasus square, Alpheratz. This is artistic licence here, as it's actually Alpha Andromeda. Go two stars left, and then two stars up. it's then just slightly off line to the west from this. As already mentioned, once you have found it, you will be able to get to it straight away from then on. M33 is in a straight line downwards from this, roughly about the same distance down from Miach as M31 is up. For any decent DSO hunting, the only way to really have a fighting chance is to get somewhere dark, away from any light pollution at all. Yes they are just faint, grey fuzzy blobs. But you know that light has taken millions of years to reach your eyeball, and you can conceive the vast enormity of the sheer number of stars it contains. And then you will want to take a picture of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.Grant Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 (edited) Hi, By eye I find Andromeda the same way as shown in Tibbz chart, dropping down from Cassiopeia and up from Mirach. Like many other items in the sky it's a case of knowing where to look, things like Stellarium can help with this (and it's free). If you have a pair of binos I'd use those to try locate it. It's easy enough to find with binos even with moderate light pollution. Initially I found this quicker than using my scope and once you have found it a couple of times you'll know where you need to be looking. Once you know where to find it, it is visible to the naked eye (even the slightly worn out version I have!). I also found the book Turn Left at Orion to be useful as it shows you the objects are you are likely to see them through the eyepiece, rather than the stunning stacked & processed images you often see. You can find some online examples here: http://www.cambridge.org/features/turnleft/default.htm Along with this example showing Andromeda through a various scopes and binos. Edited February 22, 2014 by Al.Grant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stash Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I am going to get shot by saying this but too old to care. The pictures you see arn't what people see with their naked eye's(most of the time!) even through scopes so in reality its a virtual image as the human eye can't see it in that detail - as so elegantly said by everyone else. Its the same as the pictures of people in mags they are "air brushed" - In real life they don't look that good and the images created here are exactly the same. The Astrophotographers do not see the image(most of the time!) as shown by the photo's - they "air brushed" images thru lots of processes - very skilled and their work very hard to get that image (Costs too!) So enjoy the "hunt" - it's fun and just as good an achievement finding an object in the vastness of what you are looking at as creating/seeing the pictures IMO Yes the pics look stunning but don't loose faith in not seeing the "picture" in the eye piece. There's a lot more to Astronomy ,IMHO, than just taking pictures. I will now crawl back under my rock to keep safe from the hail of abuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.Grant Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Stash, That's one of the reasons I like Turn Left at Orion, it shows images more like this: (I inverted this ... normally shown black on white background) Never going to be 100% accurate or representative of every scope and seeing conditions etc .... but far more realistic than the processed images often shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stash Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Stash, That's one of the reasons I like Turn Left at Orion, it shows images more like this: (I inverted this ... normally shown black on white background) Never going to be 100% accurate or representative of every scope and seeing conditions etc .... but far more realistic than the processed images often shown. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1954 Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Thanks everyone for all the advice, knew I could rely on the forum. I think I will get the binocs out and keep on trying but not be too distracted there's other things to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brantuk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Dennis - I'm only just down the road from you (other side of Bradgate Park) if you fancy coming over for a session one clear night. I'll show you where it is and you can have a look at it in the Lightbridge. Send me a pm if you fancy doing that and we can arrange it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parklife2uk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hi Dennis, This was how I found the Andromeda galaxy, hope it helps. Clear nights are few and far between at the moment!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toymaster Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Interesting posts here... Explains why some of my most Wow moments have been with low mag binoculars. Also why when looking for something with my naked eye I do not see it too well and then I go to look away and suddenly I see a clearer flash of the image. (rods coming into use) Ade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Definitely use low power eyepieces with a telescope and I've found a light pollution reduction filter really helpful. M101 looked 3 times larger with one than without. I have seen the dust lane in M31 but exceptionally on a very few clear nights. I'm going to try and image it during the late summer/autumn when it gets higher. M33 is a real <expletive> to find but I have seen some detail. I have seen detail on M81. On the subject of naked-eye galaxies, I've heard reliable claims about M33 and even M81 being seen with the unaided eye. The Magellanic Clouds are visible from anywhere more than a few degrees south of the equator but are not visible from suburbia. They just appear as a lightening of the sky in binoculars. I first saw them from the Pacific coast of Chile and hope to bag them with my DSLR sometime. Just need a grand or few and some time off work to visit my in-laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werisit Posted March 2, 2014 Share Posted March 2, 2014 Hi Dennis, you don't say what scope / eyepiece you're using. Generally, keep the magnification low when searching for objects. I use a 32mm eye piece on my 102mm refractor that has a focal length of 500mm. This give a mere 15 times magnification but a field of view of about 2.5degrees. Once you've found it you can up the magnification. As a previous post said, binoculars are brill for scanning around and finding stuff like M31 and open clusters. The view of the Pleiades M44 through bins really is hard to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werisit Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hi Dennis, Have you had any luck with M31 yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bino-viewer Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 The view of the Pleiades M44 through bins really is hard to beat. Spot on with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuckstar Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Definitely use low power eyepieces with a telescope and I've found a light pollution reduction filter really helpful. M101 looked 3 times larger with one than without. I have seen the dust lane in M31 but exceptionally on a very few clear nights. I'm going to try and image it during the late summer/autumn when it gets higher. M33 is a real <expletive> to find but I have seen some detail. I have seen detail on M81. On the subject of naked-eye galaxies, I've heard reliable claims about M33 and even M81 being seen with the unaided eye. The Magellanic Clouds are visible from anywhere more than a few degrees south of the equator but are not visible from suburbia. They just appear as a lightening of the sky in binoculars. I first saw them from the Pacific coast of Chile and hope to bag them with my DSLR sometime. Just need a grand or few and some time off work to visit my in-laws. Myself and Perkilator found m81/m82 naked-eye a couple of weeks ago at Elvaston. We had to double check. Maybe it was a bit brighter due to the S/N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werisit Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Andy, that's impressive. I always have trouble with M81 / 2 in the polluted skies of MK. You can't see any guide stars so they're out in the middle of nowhere. Have managed to get 82 with patience and spotted the SN. Very rewarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Andy, that's impressive. I always have trouble with M81 / 2 in the polluted skies of MK. You can't see any guide stars so they're out in the middle of nowhere. Have managed to get 82 with patience and spotted the SN. Very rewarding. If by MK you mean Milton Keynes, the light pollution was so dire there that I couldn't see anything fainter than Deneb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Myself and Perkilator found m81/m82 naked-eye a couple of weeks ago at Elvaston. We had to double check. Maybe it was a bit brighter due to the S/N. Now that is REALLY impressive. Well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now